Subvolts take Understand life's universal rules, from biology to AI, with a Santa Fe Institute professor. Oct 25, 2025 - Developers
- Learn about fundamental principles that might guide the design of more general AI systems.
- Business
- Consider how universal laws of complexity might apply to diverse technological or organizational structures.
This is a solid interview with a researcher discussing fundamental concepts that may influence future AI development and understanding.
The Universal Hierarchy of Life - Prof. Chris Kempes [SFI]
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Machine Learning Street Talk features Professor Chris Kempes discussing a universal theory of life. He proposes a three-level framework: diverse materials, universal physics constraints, and abstract principles like evolution. Kempes suggests that AI and culture could be viewed as life forms on different substrates, using the convergent evolution of eyes as an example of universal principles at work.
Professor Chris Kempes explains that life might be more than just biology. He suggests universal rules of physics and evolution could define life, whether it's on Earth, in space, or even in artificial intelligence. This helps us think about what makes any complex system, like AI, 'alive'.
This episode explores a broad, philosophical view of life, extending beyond biology to include AI and culture. It's for anyone interested in the fundamental nature of complex systems and intelligence, whether biological or artificial. The discussion on universal principles and optimization rules offers a unique perspective relevant to current AI research, particularly in understanding emergent behaviors and the potential for general intelligence across different substrates.
- HostTim Scarfe
- GuestChris KempesProfessor, Santa Fe Institute
- Guest: Professor Chris Kempes
- Show: Machine Learning Street Talk
- Length: 41 minutes
- Framework Levels: Materials, Constraints, Principles
- Example of Convergence: Evolution of the eye
"What is life?" - asks Chris Kempes, a professor at the Santa Fe Institute.
Chris explains that scientists are moving beyond a purely Earth-based, biological view and are searching for a universal theory of life that could apply to anything, anywhere in the universe. He proposes that things we don't normally consider "alive"—like human culture, language, or even artificial intelligence; could be seen as life forms existing on different "substrates".
To understand this, Chris presents a fascinating three-level framework:
- Materials: The physical stuff life is made of. He argues this could be incredibly diverse across the universe, and we shouldn't expect alien life to share our biochemistry.
- Constraints: The universal laws of physics (like gravity or diffusion) that all life must obey, regardless of what it's made of. This is where different life forms start to look more similar.
- Principles: At the highest level are abstract principles like evolution and learning. Chris suggests these computational or "optimization" rules are what truly define a living system.
A key idea is "convergence" – using the example of the eye. It's such a complex organ that you'd think it evolved only once. However, eyes evolved many separate times across different species. This is because the physics of light provides a clear "target", and evolution found similar solutions to the problem of seeing, even with different starting materials.
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Prof. Chris Kempes:
https://www.santafe.edu/people/profile/chris-kempes
TRANSCRIPT:
https://app.rescript.info/public/share/Y2cI1i0nX_-iuZitvlguHvaVLQTwPX1Y_E1EHxV0i9I
TOC:
00:00:00 - Introduction to Chris Kempes and the Santa Fe Institute
00:02:28 - The Three Cultures of Science
00:05:08 - What Makes a Good Scientific Theory?
00:06:50 - The Universal Theory of Life
00:09:40 - The Role of Material in Life
00:12:50 - A Hierarchy for Understanding Life
00:13:55 - How Life Diversifies and Converges
00:17:53 - Adaptive Processes and Defining Life
00:19:28 - Functionalism, Memes, and Phylogenies
00:22:58 - Convergence at Multiple Levels
00:25:45 - The Possibility of Simulating Life
00:28:16 - Intelligence, Parasitism, and Spectrums of Life
00:32:39 - Phase Changes in Evolution
00:36:16 - The Separation of Matter and Logic
00:37:21 - Assembly Theory and Quantifying Complexity
REFS:
Developing a predictive science of the biosphere requires the integration of scientific cultures [Kempes et al]
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2209196121
Seeing with an extra sense (“Dangerous prediction”) [Rob Phillips]
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982224009035
The Multiple Paths to Multiple Life [Christopher P. Kempes & David C. Krakauer]
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00239-021-10016-2
The Information Theory of Individuality [David Krakauer et al]
- substrate
- Chris Kempes
- the underlying material or system something exists on or is built from
- convergence
- Chris Kempes
- when different systems independently develop similar solutions to a problem
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44 minQuestions people ask
- What is the universal theory of life Chris Kempes proposes?
- Kempes proposes a three-level framework: diverse materials, universal physics constraints, and abstract principles like evolution and learning, suggesting life can exist on various substrates beyond biology.
- How does the evolution of the eye relate to this theory?
- The eye's convergent evolution, appearing multiple times independently, illustrates how universal principles can lead to similar solutions for complex problems, regardless of the specific 'materials' involved.
Page generated Oct 19, 2026. Summaries are Subvolts' own; the audio, artwork and notes belong to Machine Learning Street Talk (MLST).