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Subvolts take AI's systemic measurement risks dehumanization; Lepore explains the historical pattern. Jul 20, 2026
For you
Business
Understand how systemic measurement, a core AI function, can be viewed as dehumanizing and impact societal structures.
Everyday users
Learn how the increasing reliance on data and AI might be flattening human experiences and impacting politics and governance.
Hype note
3/5Notable

This episode features a prominent historian discussing the societal implications of AI's data-driven approach, offering a critical perspective.

Decoder with Nilay Patel
Decoder with Nilay Patel Episode

Dr. Jill Lepore on why the AI backlash is vital for the future

1 h Interview Hosts: Nilay Patel
0:0059:35

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From Subvolts

Summary and analysis by Subvolts editorial, AI-assisted.

Summary

Dr. Jill Lepore joins Nilay Patel on Decoder to discuss her new book, "The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State." Lepore argues that systemic measurement, central to building artificial states and AI, dehumanizes individuals by flattening human concerns into data. She explores how these artificial structures impact politics, governance, and the future of nation-states.

Explained simply

This episode explores how building systems by collecting and measuring data, like AI does, can reduce people to numbers. Dr. Lepore explains this process can flatten human experiences and concerns, impacting everything from apps to politics.

Why listen

This episode offers a historical perspective on the dangers of over-reliance on data and quantification. Lepore connects the drive for systemic measurement to the development of AI, urging listeners to consider the human cost. It is for anyone concerned about the societal impact of technology and governance, particularly those following AI's integration into all aspects of life, from frontier labs to national policy.

On the mic
  • HostNilay Patel
  • GuestJill LeporeAuthor
About
OpenAIGoogleAnthropicMicrosoftMetaxAIPolicyResearch
Key facts
  • Guest: Dr. Jill Lepore
  • Show: Decoder with Nilay Patel
  • Length: 60 minutes
  • Book Title: The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State
  • Core Thesis: Systemic measurement is a dehumanizing act that flattens humanity into something artificial.
Show notes from The Verge

Dr. Jill Lepore is one of the best writers there is at identifying institutional patterns in history, and Decoder is a show about systems and organization — so her new book, The Rise and Fall of the Artificial State, is a perfect fit for the show.

You build systems by measuring things — gathering information, quantifying it as data, and taking action on it. The book's big thesis is that this kind of systemic measurement is really a dehumanizing act, one that flattens humanity and human concerns into something, well, artificial.

These artificial structures touch everything — not just in the more obvious places like in apps or AI, but all the way up to politics, governance, and the very future of the nation-state itself.

Read the full interview transcript on The Verge.

Links: 


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Credits:

Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.

Decoder’s producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.

The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder.

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Jargon decoded
Artificial State
Dr. Jill Lepore
A society or system built on data and measurement, potentially at the expense of human concerns.
Published
Show
Decoder with Nilay Patel · The Verge
Length
1 h
Companies
OpenAI, Google, Anthropic, Microsoft, Meta, xAI
Summary by
Subvolts, using an AI model (how we work). Spotted a mistake? Tell us.
#Policy#Research

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Questions people ask

What is the main argument of Dr. Jill Lepore's book?
Dr. Lepore's book argues that building systems by measuring and quantifying information, a process central to AI, is a dehumanizing act that flattens human concerns into artificial structures.
How does Dr. Lepore connect AI to the 'artificial state'?
She connects AI to the concept of the 'artificial state' by highlighting how both rely on systemic measurement and quantification, which she views as a dehumanizing process that impacts governance and society.

Page generated Oct 19, 2026. Summaries are Subvolts' own; the audio, artwork and notes belong to The Verge.